Do Demons Have Some Domain Over the Physical World?

How much power do demons have over the physical world? Some of my friends claim experiences with seeing ghosts, friends being inhabited, and even furniture moving. I've heard people advanced in the occult, when they touch a holy medal or some such, experiencing pain and a flash coming from the holy object. According to some exorcists, demons can even give a stigmata. Do you think those kinds of things can happen? Are there other things that can happen as well? If it's true, personally, I hear more about that kind of thing that about seeing or experiencing angels. Why would we experience demons but not angels as much? Why would God let demons have control over the physical world at all?

We live in a spiritual world. There is a war going on for the souls of men, so yes, both demons and angels will be present. Satan has his captives here, and God has His Kingdom here, so both are going to be involved. 

But, I would point out that the natives tribes in South America, and Africa who "see a demon or a god behind every tree" are much more aware of the spiritual world than Western society. We've got a culture that questions anything we can't physically see and even boxes up God in little "he loves me" doses. People just don't know anything about what really goes on in the spirit world, and I'd say in this respect, the native tribes grasp the concept easier than most of us Americans. 

As far as all that happening up there^^ I can believe it. Even if those particular accounts are false, there's too many accounts out there like that to say that nothing ever happens like this. 

Personally, I think angels are just as active. For instance, in the book of Daniel, Daniel was praying and before his need could be answered (if I'm getting this straight) this angel had to fight a demon. Suppose that happens even today? 

I'd also point out that normally angels are just strangers, that glide into our midst, do their work and then disappear, and we can only hope we entertained them. Demons hide to, but their darkness and craftiness is aimed at hurting and injuring souls and if out and out physical terror is going to send their object into depression, they will perform.

Countess wrote:But, I would point out that the natives tribes in South America, and Africa who "see a demon or a god behind every tree" are much more aware of the spiritual world than Western society.

Well, tribes are often somewhat lacking in access to educational resources and dependent on speculation. Many tribes today are not so much tribes in the traditional sense as ordinary people who live in cities and lead fairly usual lives, but if you mean your standard African tribe in the forests there's quite a bit of superstition still going on, people who have experience with them will tell you that. If tribes do indeed see demons behind every tree (I'm not knowledgeable on that) then it's not necessarily evidence that they are behind every tree. Forgive me if I sound offensive, I'm phrasing things as best I can.

Countess wrote:For instance, in the book of Daniel, Daniel was praying and before his need could be answered (if I'm getting this straight) this angel had to fight a demon. Suppose that happens even today? 

I'm sure there's a lot of fighting going on we can't see. But that's not the same as things happening in the physical world.

Countess wrote:I can believe it. Even if those particular accounts are false, there's too many accounts out there like that to say that nothing ever happens like this. 

Maybe, but there's numerous accounts of all sorts of things. I don't know if there's stats on this but I'd guess there's about as many alien sightings as reports on possession.

Countess wrote:I'd also point out that normally angels are just strangers, that glide into our midst, do their work and then disappear, and we can only hope we entertained them.

Angels still come down today in disguise? And that's a regular thing? I've heard no accounts of that. Is that just your speculation? And why do they do that? You mention "we can only hope we entertained them." That makes it sound like a fairy tale where a witch or fairy tests people to see if they're kind.

PF I have to say that your stance that the physical and spiritual worlds are separate, which is what I'm getting from your response to Countess correct me if I'm wrong, is antithetical to what the Church Fathers wrote about. They wrote about spiritual warfare in a very physical way, read the Desert Fathers about them literally wrestling with demons at times. Because as we know Satan is the prince of this earth and so his demons are here with us. You ask why Christ would let them affect physical things, look at when He let Legion go into the herd of pigs. 

Also how in the world are you skeptical about angels being among us?

War Doctor wrote:PF I have to say that your stance that the physical and spiritual worlds are separate, which is what I'm getting from your response to Countess correct me if I'm wrong, is antithetical to what the Church Fathers wrote about.

Not separate, there's a great deal of interaction. Heck, we're partly spiritual ourselves, our souls aren't physical, obviusly.

But while people physically wrestled with demons, my question would be, does that happen much today? C.S. Lewis wrote in Screwtape Letters that demons are making an effort to make little no physical intervention nowadays.

Further, again, you mention demons. Why do people claim things about demons interacting physically with earth, while we hear so little about angels?

I've hardly had time to become a skeptic of the idea, it's entirely a new idea to me. I knew there was the occasional angel sent to help someone, certainly. But I didn't think angels coming in human form was at all common. What do you mean by, "among us"? Do you mean they are among us with some regularity? Is it likely one might pass an angel, say, once a month? If you mean to say that then yes, I am skeptical.

Also, why would angels be regularly present in human form, but not demons? Is there something preventing demons from doing so? Are they simply refraining from that as precaution?

I think as C.S. Lewis said in Screwtape Letters demons do not appear in physical forms as much because of the times. Maybe to cause doubt about angels taking physical form. 

Why are you skeptical that angels are among us regularly? What about your guardian angel?

Correct. They can take physical form, but they don't.

Again, I'm skeptical they are among us physically with regularity. I certainly believe in and am very fond of my  guardian angel.

Let's work on an assumption really quick, I assume that the Bible and stories in both our Traditions mention angels being physically present with regularity. At least in the past, maybe there aren't as many contemporary stories. Do you agree that angels were physically present with regularity in the past? And if so what do you think changed?

Yes, they do. Yes, I agree they were present regularly. Yes, I do think so. I don't think miracles happen less regularly, but I would think angels simply have to show up less frequently. Everyone is legally kept track of, everyone has public records, it's harder to simply show up for awhile and then vanish nowadays. I mean, all it would take to know somebody's not an actual person is to Google their name nowadays. So even on a purely practical level it would make no sense.

I think that's an awfully small box you've put God and His angels in

Angels still come down today in disguise? And that's a regular thing? I've heard no accounts of that. Is that just your speculation? And why do they do that? You mention "we can only hope we entertained them." That makes it sound like a fairy tale where a witch or fairy tests people to see if they're kind.

Okay so since you've heard no accounts yourself, somehow it's now a universal fact that accounts of angels don't exist. I've heard a fair number of stories actually. The Bible says to entertain strangers, for some have entertained angels unaware. Notice the word "unaware." That means we did not know we did, and yet we did. K? So yeah, the homeless guy who we invite into our home for a meal could just very well be an angel, not to mention the fact that by feeding the poor and homeless we are serving Christ himself. 

As for googling someone's name, I would agree with WD that that's a small box. You don't think the God of the universe could somehow put into a little earths' computer system an ID? I think that's a rather ridiculous standard as well. 

And to, maybe you aren't seeing angels, because you aren't asking? It's the people who are in desperate need and who ask God in faith who receive. If we sit on our Western thrones of common sense and try to logically determine if angels still come around or not, I guarantee we aren't going to see anything. The Devil will make sure of that.

I don't say there are no accounts, I'm going by the info I have. Have you heard accounts? 

God could do that, but do you really think He interferes with such everyday things regularly?

Maybe. Have you or WD seen angels?

God doesn't want us to be logical about Christianity?

Do you think God is not involved in every aspect of our lives? That He is only involved in the big or important things? 

I haven't seen angels before. 

Christianity is not logical, as a philosophy it falls apart easily.

I have not personally seen an angel. I do know my father has seen the direct work of one but not the angel itself.

He was driving in a foreign country at night and saw a child in the road ahead of a vehicle. The driver of the vehicle could not have seen the child. Dad said that it looked like someone picked the child up and moved it off the road just before the vehicle got to it. After the vehicle was past the child was again picked up and put back exactly where it had been. Right where the vehicle had driven only a second before.

Was this a coincidence? Or did an angel (or spirit) come down and physically move something (the child)?

I don't say there are no accounts, I'm going by the info I have. Have you heard accounts? 

Many. So my dad and mom with a few friends had a wreck when I was 4 years old, and some mysterious guy showed up to help them out of the vehicle after they had rolled down the cliff and landed in a stream in the middle of Montana. He got there before any ambulances were called and disappeared right after. Of course it maybe was just some kind stranger passing through and then again... 

My sister was almost run over by a truck when she was almost a year old. Our neighbor was backing up his truck and he heard her crying and stopped his truck, the wheel only inches from her head. My mother had been screaming at him the entire time and he had never heard her, but somehow he heard my sister's really faint cry, which is a miracle. 

When I was around 8 years old, I would listen to this Christian audio drama of true stories recounted. One was about a sister and brother alone in a cabin in the mountains. They were around 16 and 17 years old. It started to snow, and a stranger visited them. They allowed him in and offered him food, but before they knew what was happening, he had tied the boy up and was waving a gun in their face. He forced the girl to round up any valuables in the cabin. Right before he made his exit, someone else knocked at the door. This guy was just as mysterious as the other, but he seemed to know exactly what was going on. He ordered the man to put what he had stolen down, and then tossed him out the window like he was a bag of flour. The siblings were very grateful and gave him a room for the night. The next morning they discovered he was gone and he had left a note in the room with the verse about entertaining strangers for some have entertained angels unaware. 

I have no sources to prove that story is really true. But I firmly believe angels are among us all the time. Probably helping us every day, and we have no idea. 

I haven't seen angels before. 

Or you have, and didn't know it. 

And if you want to see an angel, PF, just ask God to show you one?

Involved yes. Constantly miraculously and supernaturally intervening? No.

God interfering regularly with activities like Googling for example, it depends what you mean. God does watch over things, I'll call that the Guiding Hand. The Guiding Hand is something like God aligning circumstances in real life to suggest to you to Google something He desires you to learn more about. I believe He does do things like that. That does nothing that could not happen naturally. However, if I Googled something and He made false results come up to cover an angel's tracks, He'd be adding something to the world, He'd be inserting something that could not otherwise happen. That would be miraculous and outside of normal possibility. That He does not do lightly, nor do individuals regularly experience it.

Oh that's right, that's where we'll have to agree to disagree unless we want to start that again.

Countess and Farmer, all of those are very iffy. They are just stories of nice people doing nice things and maybe it was an angel, who knows. In any case, again, I don't deny miracles, they certainly happen regularly, nor do deny angels help us in physical form. I do however deny that angels are physically around all the time. Those are all possible cases of an angel helping someone. If they do involve angels, then angels help us sometimes, which I grant. What I don't grant is that angels regularly wander about, whether to perform a miracle or no. All of those stories are about angels serving a specific purpose, none of them are evidence for angels simply being out and about.

So you haven't seen an angel either, MF? So you and the Good Doctor both insist angels are walking about with regularity, and neither of you have seen one?

I'm not sure I understand the reason for your objections. Why would you argue that angels aren't regularly among us? 

Also where do you get this idea of "the Guiding Hand" working how you claim? And what end does it serve to try and figure out exactly how God works in the world?

@Pound Cake, I object to you calling the story I shared iffy. What is iffy about it? Are you insinuating that my father is making a story up? Also how could it have been a random person that just happened to be in the right place at the right time? If it had been my dad would have seen them and there is no way they could have done what happened without getting hit themselves.

Because it's impractical to think people could regularly walk about undiscovered with today's technology. Because one simply doesn't hear of such things. Because when an angel is present in an account they're not simply there. They are fulfilling a specific role in a specific event at to fulfill a specific need, as in the stories Countess and Farmer provided.

"The Guiding Hand" was just a trying to illustrate that not everything God does is a supernatural event that couldn't happen in the natural world. That's what I refer to the as the Guiding Hand. It's God guiding events, nudging them along, not actually, say, healing something. You claim that angels are around all the time. In order for that to happen, God would have to interfere with today's technology all the time. God doesn't perform supernatural miracles on the individual level with such frequency. A person is lucky if they experience a handful of clearly and unquestionably supernatural events over the course of their lifetime. In order for angels to be around regularly, God would have instill a supernatural phenomena regularly.

What end does it serve to try understand more about God? Is that a serious question? Or am I misunderstanding the question?

I'm so sorry Farmer, I was unclear. By "iffy" I mean what exactly the story means is iffy. It's open ended. Kind people do kind things all the time, they don't necessarily wait around for the credit. In fact, often times they're the kind of people who just want to do their good deed and move on. Both you and Countess  are too honest to claim, "Obviously it was an angel, there's no other conclusion" because obviously those stories could very easily happen without supernatural interference and an angel is not a definite conclusion. Okey doki loki?

Ok. Your forgiven. But please read the last half of my last post. I was saying that there is no other explanation to the event than an angel.

To go from there, I recently listened to a preacher talk an entire evening on the spirit world and encounters he has personally had with it. He included people who had seen angels, casting out spirits, and miracles. It was very eye-opening.

Farmer wrote:Was this a coincidence? Or did an angel (or spirit) come down and physically move something (the child)?

Sounds open-ended to me.

I will take this opportunity to again point out nobody in this discussion has seen these angels that frequent earth. We've all missed 'em.

What end does it serve to try understand more about God? Is that a serious question? Or am I misunderstanding the question?

You're misunderstanding the question. I was more asking what end does it serve to go around trying to rationalize God and angels? As if our modern technology somehow limits God. 

It's God guiding events, nudging them along, not actually, say, healing something. You claim that angels are around all the time. In order for that to happen, God would have to interfere with today's technology all the time. God doesn't perform supernatural miracles on the individual level with such frequency.

I just have no idea where this is coming from, are you really saying God doesn't heal people? And on what do you base this idea that God just nudges things along? 

True, the four of us talking right now have not seen these angels. I wouldn't base your opinion so strongly on that fact, all though it seems like you came to this discussion pretty set in your opinion about angels and God's role in the world.

I think what PF is trying to say is that angels don't just wander around living human lives without a specific purpose. Which is a point I would agree with, seeing as every appearance of an angel in the Bible has a specific purpose. Perhaps in some cases that purpose is fulfilled by assuming human form and living a day to day life, but I would say that's definitely a minority.

"Rationalize" indicates that it's irrational to try to rationally understand this. I disagree.

No, certainly God heals people! The principle was God can also do things without performing a supernatural, say, healing. This was established to distinguish between non-supernatural phenomena, which is the rule, and supernatural phenomena, which is the exception. You seem to be arguing super natural phenomena isn't so much of an exception.

Woody wrote:I think what PF is trying to say is that angels don't just wander around living human lives without a specific purpose. Which is a point I would agree with, seeing as every appearance of an angel in the Bible has a specific purpose. Perhaps in some cases that purpose is fulfilled by assuming human form and living a day to day life, but I would say that's definitely a minority

Precisely. Thanks!

I'll admit I'm working off my own assumptions and I wonder where both of our assumptions come from. There is very little written about angels in the Bible so our assumptions must come from other sources, so what are those sources for you?